Inviting Men to the Table of Gender Equity with Kori Reed

We're ecstatic to bring to the mic, the brilliant Kori Reed, author of Men in the Middle, committed to uncovering the untold narrative around gender equity. Join us as Kori takes us along the intriguing path of her research, where she sought to understand why men are often silent on issues of gender equality. Her findings may surprise you!

In this engaging episode, we investigate the subtle differences between equality and equity, two terms often used interchangeably but with distinct meanings. Kori passionately advocates for equity, and she'll explain why. Her goal is not to threaten men, but rather to invite them to the table, to share in the abundant benefits that gender equity brings. Our conversation goes further as we uncover strategies for men to support gender equity within their workplaces. We'll examine the power of open dialogues and the role of role-playing in fostering an environment of understanding and acceptance. 

Resources: 
www.korireed.com
Buy the Book: https://rb.gy/9lru9

Transcript

Melissa Warner: 0:07

Welcome back everyone to the latest episode of Let Me Interrupt, where we dive into meaningful conversations on all things women in the workplace. Today we are talking about a really great topic on gender equity, and I'm thrilled to introduce our guest today, cory Reed, the mastermind and esteemed author of Men in the Middle conversations to gain momentum with gender equity's silent majority. Kori is a dynamic individual whose journey through academia and the corporate world has paved the way for her to become an influential advocate for change. Holding a degree in journalism and a master's in communication, cory's expertise extends beyond mere qualifications. With an impressive background in various Fortune 500 companies such as Goodyear Tire, quaker Oats, pepsico and Kanagra brands, cory brings to the table a wealth of experience in igniting genuine connections and driving transformative discussions.

Melissa Warner: 1:02

What truly sets Cory apart is her passion for delving into the unspoken layers of issues, uncovering their roots and addressing court concerns. As a devoted mother to her two daughters and two sons, she holds a commitment to gender equity, envisioning a world where every individual can rise together. Through her work, cory Reed strives to create a reality where all boats are lifted by the rising tide of progress, benefiting not only our daughters but also our sons. So let's get ready to explore the depths of gender equity and change. Cory, you are certainly welcome here in this space and welcome to our podcast.

Kori Reed: 1:38

Well, first of all, thank you so much for the work you're doing. I mean that the I love conversations. That's kind of my space. So thank you for the work and congratulations on a great podcast that you have, and I'm thrilled to talk with you today.

Cindy Mendez: 1:49

We're thrilled to have you, Cory. So the first thing I think we let there's so much that we need to cover, and so I want to just jump into what inspired you to write this book Men in the Middle, what went into it, what inspired?

Kori Reed: 2:04

you Sure. So I just I have a natural curiosity, by nature, I'm sure you two do, because, by the way, I've listened to your podcast and you do a great job of inquiring and bringing out stories. So, especially right around the time of me too, I noticed that women were all gathering telling stories around the water cooler, wherever we were telling stories, and I noticed that a lot of my male colleagues were not participating at all. And I worked with a lot of good people over years. I've worked in corporations starting and manufacturing plants all the way up to corporate headquarters, so I've dealt with a lot of very talented women and men and it was very interesting for me.

Kori Reed: 2:41

Now some would say that probably men haven't been speaking about gender equality, gender equity for years, but it certainly exacerbated that in that moment, and because I worked in consumer packaged goods companies, where we do a lot of market research on everything, one of my friends challenged me and she said you know what, cory? Don't make an assumption, test it, research it, find out what that is. And so I actually, on my own dime, hired a market research professional and I enlisted a friend and we reached out to a network to see if men would talk to us about this topic Because I was working with a professional week, created a guide that initially started out and I lay this out in the book just about pretty easy questions, about asking them, and by the end it was a great conversation. These men were saying things that I hadn't heard before and I was like, wow, this is pretty incredible. And I'm wrapping that up because, much like you said, conversations are a passion for me and how we raise that.

Melissa Warner: 3:39

That's wonderful. I'm very curious, though. I'm kind of like some insight into the research you know, as you were putting your book together, you know. Maybe walk us through what that research looked like and what did it reveal.

Kori Reed: 3:50

Yeah, so absolutely, and thanks for asking. So, like I said, we put together a question guide with this market research professional and, and then we reached out to our network. 30 men said yes, we promised to do it on anonymous conditions Initially, didn't know of anyone. You guys would respond back to me because here we are talking about a topic that I've been doing like. These were men that were either high potential managers all the way up to CEOs or retired CEOs that ran our network of people and we promised anonymity and $100 gift card. And I joke around. I don't know which was more of an incentive the gift card or the willingness to talk about it, but I think, melissa, one of the most fascinating things for me is of the men that said yes.

Kori Reed: 4:32

I remember calling this one man for the interview and he said oh my gosh, I've been waiting 18 months to talk about this with someone and I was fascinated because, stereotypically, having worked in organizations, we typically hear the stories about in meetings, how men talk over women, how, you know, men are talking a lot in these, these conversations, and I hate to go on stereotypes, but just for the contrast, I'm going to share there that I was kind of blown away that he said that I thought, wow, he has opinions about something and he's not saying anything about it. And and that was probably one of the biggest insights I had is the oh, these guys want to really talk about it and so why? That was one that after the interview I said to him hey, no, you have been great during this interview, given lots of insight. You haven't actually given some good advice that I'll share a moment about some things they said. I said I'm curious.

Kori Reed: 5:24

At the beginning of the call you said that you are waiting to talk about. Why didn't you talk about it? Any pause? Any said you know what. Nobody asked me, which I found fascinating again, most of Cindy, because this always and stereotypically, you know, people have, especially have worked in number of corporations if, if men in a room and a meeting or have something to say, they'll speak up and we've heard that. But in this case I was really fascinated and that really spurred me on to even do more secondary research extensively in terms of was this just coming out from the interviews or was this overall?

Cindy Mendez: 5:58

Yeah, I think the first thing that comes to mind, especially around that time, was it around the me to movement, or was it shortly? How far away.

Cindy Mendez: 6:06

It was shortly after the rise, so it was kind of right after the rise of that time so I can maybe imagine here that there was some fear, because I know at least I've had conversations with men About this it's very much like it's not my place, it's not my fight or it's not. You know what I mean. Like Because they're afraid, like being the perpetrator or Stepping in waters that don't they don't belong in is what I understood. You have any?

Kori Reed: 6:38

Your spot on. So I think that piece and actually I write in the book that I kind of hesitated writing this. I went through things like imposter syndrome, like I'm not a guy, oh my gosh, what's happening. But what I find fascinating is you're absolutely right, fear, fear, vulnerability, feeling misunderstood, ambiguity, all those things that we think about. What I thought found to be very ironic in that sense is women and men were having the same feelings in many ways about this issue, but from very different aspects of the story. So for women, we were sharing stories of the water cooler of things, everything from inappropriate behavior to equal pay, to the expansive aspects of what Equity is and I can talk a little bit about also why choose equity versus equality and we can get into that in a moment. But what I realized is this is interesting men are experiencing same feelings to their just not talking about Emma from very different angle. And even today kind of test the idea after I did the research and even say that continues men saying it's not a safe space.

Kori Reed: 7:42

So, yes, sometimes you can say there's been distance from the height of me to, but that doesn't mean that feeling went away from men. As a matter of fact, I have men say to me often I will never have lunch alone with a woman, I'll never have a meeting alone with a woman, and I'm always fascinated by them, like why is that? And the risk for them of being falsely accused of something. No, lunch might be different, but I think after work meetings.

Kori Reed: 8:08

I used to travel a lot for my job, and what I will say to men is I can't imagine working like this. I was often the only female on a team, and so if I couldn't have a meeting with somebody, regardless of what I was doing, I wouldn't have information to do my job, and so that's what I found to be really fascinating. So, cindy, you're right, the timing was interesting, but I think we don't talk about it much, but that feeling kind of perpetuates, and so we just aren't seeing men engage in the conversation. And the reason I add the why that's so important is we know that that men are seventy five to eighty percent of C-suite positions and so they're in the position to influence policies and change, and so if they're not engaging, I think that just gets us in this stuck situation that I want to have conversations to gain momentum in that space.

Melissa Warner: 8:53

So you touched on something earlier that I want to revisit for those people who are listening, who may not know the difference between equity and equality within the realm of your book, can you kind of touch on that and keep fundamental differences might be. Yeah, thank you, melissa. A lot of people use equality and I'm not.

Kori Reed: 9:06

I'm not opposed to that, I'll say, even when I asked the initially in the interview guide I use the word Equality because that's probably more common term and so a quality is if you imagine the three of us, if we each of us got the same stepping stool, quality would be we each get a stepping school, the same height, we get the same thing.

Kori Reed: 9:29

Equity in that sense might be if Cindy's taller than me or Melissa, you're shorter, advice, all those aspects that we might need a stool that looks a little bit different so that we can all reach the same height. That's just a very visual example and so you can imagine, in the space of equity and equality overall Equity really focus on the outcomes. What I want to have happened where equality for me is about the aspect of giving the same thing. So I want to focus on the outcomes of how do we get to the space where men and women have equitable aspects to jobs, to promotions, to other pieces that we know that aren't happening today. Does that help, does that kind of clarify that I include in the book like a back of the napkin, drawing on that to just show that, because I think it's a critical piece. Quite frankly, equality is the more searchable term, if you will, but I intentionally chose equity because I think it's important we look at that, that dialogue, to acknowledge that differences do exist today.

Melissa Warner: 10:26

Yeah, and you back at the napkin. Cindy and I've done a lot of back of the envelope work together For the last few years, so that's good, really good. Thank you, cindy.

Cindy Mendez: 10:37

For some time Melissa has been saying you got to get men on this podcast, and I have been really hesitant because I do not want to come off as in like we're not, like we are not able to do this on our own without them, right, like I hope for some more time, like I said, right, so I am really candle going on for midnight, so maybe it does look like a little bit of early night. Oh, do you think that's where we get in? I realized that no, like you said, they hold a lot of the positions that make change, and so how can we kind of shift the perspective here because to how men should have an inclusion or a like? What does that look like?

Kori Reed: 11:22

You know, cindy, I think this is a great question because, to be honest with you a lot of my friends, I'm a big advocate for women and men. I have mentioned I have two women two women and two men children. They're all in their 20s at this point in life, so I'm an advocate for both. But I hear you. A lot of my girlfriends, when I was writing this, was like Cory, are you kidding me? Like are you serious? And so I said I think you're not alone. In that sense I totally appreciate it. What I've realized is that and I have written a whole manifesto that I have on my website I really think about gender equity. Men and women are different. We're different by design, you know, and I think what I say is alone we can be heroes, but together we can be superheroes, because there's a reason why we're designed differently. If you read leadership studies, you know that really there's not a lot of difference in qualities and by gender in terms of leadership qualities. As a matter of fact, there's a study they came out recently that said women actually have a little bit higher in the leadership quality aspects. But I think it's really important to acknowledge that what I do in the book is like.

Kori Reed: 12:25

In the middle section I really talk about these issues that men face, because there's a few things. Research shows that men aren't conditioned to socialize like we are. Like the three of us can sit here and talk and you've probably seen it With women. We'll talk about many, many things. Men are conditioned socially to more side-by-side activity. So imagine, you know, you hear guys talking about sports or you know my husband can have hours of conversations about his friends, about baseball and other things, and I say, oh, how salary or how someone's wife? He's like I don't know. And it's not that they don't have that relationship, it's just a different way of socializing. And so I think the idea is I'm a big believer is it's not a win-lose situation which stereotypically men will have, that mentality of when lose is a very competitive nature, but I really think equity can be a win-win. There are advantages for men too that we just don't talk about today, and so that's the whole.

Kori Reed: 13:19

My point, cindy, is how do we engage men in having these conversations so they don't see it as a threat? Here's what I'll say. When I talk to the men, they totally believed in the business case for diversity. So you probably have that where you both work, there's a diversity training, there's a business case for diversity, that we know that women and diversity of all types will help financial performance as well as innovation. The men didn't doubt that business case at the macro level, at the micro level, what it meant for them, that's what was concerning to them and that's not the conversations that we're having.

Kori Reed: 13:58

I'm not even saying we could all say, well, that's not cool, because you've had the advantage for years. We could say that what I want to do, those invite men into that conversation is okay. I hear you, I see that's a threat for you. Now how do we talk about that? Because you both know, I know that you, cindy, from training and you as a nurse, are probably two of the most empathetic people, right, just based on the professions that you do and so, listening with empathy, I think there's an opportunity to acknowledge that and have a different conversation. And so, cindy, I over it took me five years to write this book, so I totally appreciate where you're coming from on this aspect of being a champion for women, but realizing at the end of the day ooh, we really, if we can engage men in this conversation in a safe space, then we can have a different kind of conversation. So how do we move together, forward together in a way that promotes an equitable aspect, and so that's kind of where I've netted out on that.

Melissa Warner: 14:56

So, corey, you touch on that word engagement. What kind of practical, what kind of practical approaches could you offer Cindy myself, our listeners, on how we can actually engage and start those conversations with these men?

Kori Reed: 15:10

Great question. And the way I design the book and it's not saying I'm saying by my book, that's not the intent, but the way I design the book is each chapter has questions after it, because I'm a big believer that leading with curiosity is the way to go. You mentioned that nice intro you gave me, melissa, in the beginning, that my undergrads and journalism and my masses as a communication, curiosity comes to me just by nature. Now, over my lifetime, the bosses told me that I'm very annoying with my curiosity. Perhaps they have, but behind every too much of something is really your superpower, and so what I realize is it's that curiosity and asking questions. Now, these kind of conversations, I would say from a learning standpoint, cindy, you have to build some trust. Over time there is an aspect of how do we build that trust, but I would certainly encourage people and I put even in the book encourage people to have conversations, encourage men and women to have conversations over lunch, asking questions. Or what I'm a real fan of is having a mixed employee resource group men and women together talking about equity. Or if there is a women's group that's having a women's day, invite men in, but invited them to have a specific conversation in a safe space.

Kori Reed: 16:24

What I heard these men say a lot of times is it's not safe for us. Exactly what you said, cindy it's not safe. What if I say something that makes someone upset? Will they go report me to HR? Now there's some great authors out there and I put this in the book that if men are worried about that, they are probably the least likely to actually offend that. I mean putting that out there. That's the whole irony of this whole situation is, if they're worried about it, they're not the ones that are going to be doing that behavior, or they might be open and willing, and that's actually why I talk about men in the middle. It's the bell shaped curve. When I did their comments, what happened is we had the extreme examples in the media of either egregious behavior or we had some champions out there vocally for women, but the majority of men in the comments that I found really gathered somewhere in the middle of either the whole idea of meritocracy, like they believe that the best handle should rise to the top, regardless of gender, race, et cetera, or we had the men that in some cases they had had strong women in their life, like either their daughters or their own mother who had done things. When their people are in the middle, it's an opportunity to move, to gain that momentum. I think really, melissa, to your question is tapping into that creating a safe space for men to have these conversations, which, again, cindy, when I say that as a woman who have friends that have been fighting in this space for years, I'm like oh my gosh. But what I realized is, at the end of the day, that's what we want to have happen, because it's not a win-lose, it's a win-win. And how do we get people to shift their mindset and shift the narrative in that sense?

Kori Reed: 18:11

Now I'll give you one other story that I so I have two women and two men that are my children. They're all in their 20s now, but I put in the book. One of my favorite stories is I was at the dinner table with all four of them. My oldest was probably in high school and the youngest was probably in sixth grade, junior high, because they were about six years apart, and I was telling them a story about work and my daughter looked at me and said well, mom, what if we don't want to be a man hating feminist like you? And I was like, oh my gosh. And so I paused for a minute and I thought, oh my gosh, it's. You know, yes, I worked, my husband stayed at home, she saw that. But if she wants a different life, so that's fine. What I don't want my sons to think, or her to think, that I'm a man hating feminist. I don't think that's what feminism is. I think it's about a rising tide loss all boats. I want to have that conversation so my sons can go into the work and have a safe conversation about that sense and my daughters can.

Kori Reed: 19:10

And one of my favorite professors in the book and I won't use the word she used, but she said people are going to mess up. She used another colorful language for mess up, but she said we're human. And I'm sure, melissa, as a nurse, you see people at some of the most challenging times in life. I think, cindy, from a training standpoint, you know that we all have to learn. I think conversations are learned. Melissa, exactly what you said that sometimes we have to teach people how to have these conversations that are not polarizing but they're finding common ground. I'm sorry, I have a lot of passion about this. I keep talking, so I'm sorry.

Cindy Mendez: 19:48

No, this is great. So did you get any information around, kind of calling men out, like, for example, if there is a behavior that's happening and we as women kind of just take it, swallow it and say that's just how men are, or this workplace is just that's not designed for me, and keep it to ourselves, which I've done many times, you know how? Was there a perspective or was there some awareness of that in any way from those interviews?

Kori Reed: 20:23

Yes, yes. So thank you for asking. And I too, cindy, I've had something experience especially, I started the book with something that happened to me young in my career and as a young person I didn't have the words. Now that I'm, you know, past that, I'm like gosh, I could have just said this XYZ, but there's a risk for a man, I think to your point. There's been a risk for women for a long time to speak up, right, I think that that's the aspect that I think that I want to convey Certainly. I totally believe that what an exciting time that that actually need to elevate of those conversations to have that information come out. I think the unintended consequence, I would say, is then men were more quiet in that sense and that was the instance of they're not speaking. Now to your question.

Kori Reed: 21:07

Around that, I think men had some really interesting solutions. Like when I asked them, I'm like, oh my gosh, this is fascinating. They also shared things that they were doing, that were doing really well. So here's an example a man gave me. He got his 360 degree feedback. So just for the general audience, if you haven't done that, it's getting feedback from your director, your manager, is to give you kind of a view of all around you, as a working professional, what's happening. So he got the feedback and it wasn't great and he went to his team members and he actually shared that and said, ok, here's the situation, here's what I'm hearing.

Kori Reed: 21:44

And then he asked them to help him out. He said when I am using language that is offensive, sexist in nature, can you say the word banana? It was a trigger for him and now it took him a while. He said it didn't happen instantly, right away, but what happened is he would speak and someone would say the word banana to him like a code word and he either stopped the meeting and had a conversation or after the meeting he would ask them to explain what happened. And he said, over time the team had fun with it and I think that's the piece of what I loved about that is, he didn't know he was kind of messing up and he was. He got that degree in his feedback. He could have ignored that, but it was pretty bold to go back to his team from his standpoint and say, hey, how do we, how do we actually fix that together?

Kori Reed: 22:39

And then he took it a step further and engage them in how to help him and I think you know, I think that was a great story. Like I'm like, oh my gosh, if men aren't speaking up about gender equity, they're also not sharing some neat things that they're doing. The whole last chapter I have is about statements that are stories that men share. That I'm like, wow, when they're not sharing, when they're quiet, they're also not sharing some neat things they're doing. Now, I'm not saying any of these were rocket science, you know, like, oh, we're going to change the world, but I certainly think by them speaking up.

Kori Reed: 23:12

On another one talked about how he is a sales person and he trained his young professionals to, in sales meetings in particular, to watch for this because, stereotypically, at a time where sales meetings there's a lot of alcohol involved, of their things happening in a space, he would train his young professionals what to look for for the one in there and I thought, well, that's great. Again, I think these are small steps toward how do we make change, how do we gain momentum? To me, it starts with a conversation, allowing both parties into that conversation, acknowledging where they're at. We all need to be seen, felt and heard, to be acknowledged, and I think, in this sense, if we want both parties to have a conversation. It's about acknowledging that there's some feelings on both sides.

Cindy Mendez: 24:00

I like that. That code word is such a good example because it removes that awkward like I have to go into his office, the buildup it's just like when it happens you can sound the alarm, and it created an open space for everyone to be able to communicate.

Kori Reed: 24:18

Absolutely. And what I like to do, cindy, from there and I love it is gather more stories, and almost I think people have to practice these conversations. So if we could have what I envision is even having almost playing cards, or having practice in a meeting, practice having that conversation, what would you do in this situation? And that's kind of what the last chapter is about, but I'd love to engage more people because the more we get comfortable with that, that wasn't comfortable for that guy, but he acknowledged he needed it and, to his credit, he did it. And so how do we elevate more of those stories? To exactly your point, cindy, how do we elevate those conversations?

Melissa Warner: 24:53

Cindy, I think there's some role playing in our future. So we always leave kind of the last segment for our guests to kind of give some insight into any like practical gems, any takeaways that you really want to hit home with for someone who might be listening. Also, maybe some self-reflection on what you would tell the younger quarry, or even your sons and daughters, to make them better stewards of their professional colleagues in the workplace.

Kori Reed: 25:23

Yes, well, thank you for that. And I would say one thing is imposter syndrome is real. As a writer it's real, and I think you mentioned Cindy earlier about as a champion of women coming into this space. But looking at it from all angles, social change is big, you guys. You know like making big social systems changes big and gender equity has been going on for a while and, quite frankly, the numbers look like we've got years ahead of us here and I think it's. For me, it's picking that.

Kori Reed: 25:56

One thing can we do differently? I love conversations, and so what's that? One step to really open up and set the tone for more change, I think is having that conversation. That's the lens through which I'm looking at something. And so how do we engage someone in a conversation? Maybe they don't want to have making that space comfortable and making that for both parties to come involved easier said than done. But what I was amazed by, melissa, is, like I said when I asked they wanted to talk about it. These men really wanted to talk, and that's the piece I would say to take away, that it's not about, you know, inviting a group in that perhaps has been in power for a while, changing our narrative, for that way, it's more about okay, how do we invite them into this conversation? And that's the narrative I think I would like to really shift and change by having these conversations.

Kori Reed: 26:54

I think for my younger self, what I would say is is along the lines of that imposter syndrome is here I am writing about what men say, and I got challenged by men. Men said you're not a man like, why can you write about this? And what I said is is right, I'm not speaking for men. Men allowed me to use their words, to tell their stories. That's what I'm doing here to raise that, a different perspective. And even for my sons, I don't speak for them. What I want them to do, though, is when they're in a meeting, and if they see something, cindy, I hope they're the ones saying banana, or I hope they're the ones saying hey, don't do that, or vice versa. You know, if they're in a situation, I just want that conversation to happen, and that's the point that got me over in Poster Syndrome, to keep writing and talking about this, and so I'd say, if anything else, lead with curiosity. Research shows that curiosity is the antidote to judgment. If we lead with that, that'll create a conversation that I really think can change the world.

Cindy Mendez: 28:09

I love that. Thank you for sharing that with us today. And I see your book. If you're just listening and not watching the video, you have a stack of your book in the back and I love the cover. It's perfect. You know the bell shape on there with the men right in the middle, but you know, I just want to open the floor for you to tell us where can our listeners get your book? What do you have going on for those who want to learn more about this topic on your website?

Kori Reed: 28:39

as well, yeah, thank you. So the book is available on Amazon. There's an e-book and the physical copy book. I'm hopefully gonna get the audible book out by the end of this year, excited about that. But I also can be reached at my name, KoriReed. com, and, just if you're listening and not looking, my name's a little unusual spelling it's K-O-R-I-R-E-E-D, so it's KoriReed. com and I would love to hear from anyone. I love to hear from anyone. What I'd love to do is hear from anyone else in their experiences, because I said to people I'm not looking, you don't have to agree with me, but that's where we can start the conversation. That's what I'm excited about and continue to explore how we have this conversation so we can normalize men engaging in gender equity conversations.

Melissa Warner: 29:26

I love that. So, Kori, we will gladly share a link to your book on the podcast when it releases and, for those of you who are listening, joined again today by Kori Reed, the author of Men in the Middle. It's been an absolute blast having you on the podcast today. Such valuable insights. You brought your energy and have added a really fantastic layer to the topic of gender equity. So super grateful for your time and all that. You've shared your perspective. We're delighted to have you, and here's to more enlightening conversations in the future. So thanks again.

Kori Reed: 30:03

Thank you for the opportunity. I so appreciate it.

Melissa Warner: 30:05

All right. Well, you've heard it here firsthand Kori Reed, author of Men in the Middle. And as for Cindy and I, we'll leave you with Keep Interrupting.